Tony Atwood Conversational Discourse
This paper looks at the conversational discourse presented by English psychologist and autism specialist Tony Attwood in an episode of Australian Broadcast Corporation’s podcast Conversations, hosted by Richard Fidler. This podcast episode is titled, “Love and family and Asperger’s: Tony Attwood” as it circles around the topic of marriages that involve one autistic partner and one neurotypical partner. Much of the examples given about these cases, in which Tony Attwood has professional experience with because he counsels such couples, typically speak about the autistic partner being the male in the couple (keeping in mind that all couples spoken about are heterosexual); this phenomenon, and other gender related issues, will be discussed thoroughly
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throughout the paper. The overarching theme and point of interest of the paper will be the generalizations made about both autistic and neurotypical people, in questioning why they are made, if they are accurate, and if other resources back up the claims made by Tony Attwood. It is important to keep in mind that the conversation had between Attwood and Fidler was generally casual/informal in tone, however for the sake of presenting productive and objective dialogue, much of what was said will be taken at face value.
RESPONDING TO THE TONY ATTWOOD’S DISCOURSE 3
Responding to Tony Attwood’s Discourse:
Critiquing and Exploring Ideas Presented in
“Love and family and Asperger’s: Tony Attwood”
As displayed through the episode “Love and family and Asperger’s: Tony Attwood” of the Australian Broadcast Corporation’s podcast Conversations and his work, Tony Attwood has garnered a comprehensive knowledge of autism spectrum disorder and the inner workings of marriages involving an autistic partner through both professional and personal experience; he received a Ph.D. in clinical psychology, holds marriage counseling sessions for couples in which one or both of the partners are autistic, and came to realize later in like that his stepfather presented symptoms of Asperger’s Syndrome. These experiences seem to have informed his outline of understanding about the needs and tendencies of both autistic and neurotypical individuals in emotionally and socially laborious situations/circumstances. Early on in the episode Tony Attwood verbalizes some parallels in describing the behavioral traits of autistic and neurotypical people in intimate relationships; he emphasizes that these traits are truly parallels, in that their lack of intersection is what causes communicative issues in married couples (the recurring couple model in the conversation being a neurotypical wife and an autistic husband). The first parallel made was one that described particular areas of ‘neediness’ that Attwood ascribed to the description of the neurotypical partner versus the autistic partner: neurotypicals
RESPONDING TO THE TONY ATTWOOD’S DISCOURSE 4 are “emotionally needy” while autistics are “socially needy.” This idea of neediness sets up the overarching theme of Attwood’s discussion of what he finds to be the common narrative of the married couples he sees, and that is the inherent needs of each partner based on their neurological properties. Although Attwood verbalizes the fact that just because the autistic partner does not express their feelings through speech does not mean that these feelings do not exist, much of his language enforces the idea that autistic individuals have little intimate, emotional needs. When presenter Richard Fidler asks whether or not “marriage is attractive to those with Asperger’s,” Attwood plainly states that people with Asperger’s ask themselves, “Who do I need?” and that they look for someone to replace their mothers for the purpose of cooking, cleaning, organizing, etc. On the other hand, he describes women as “gardens that need to be tended to,” through the means of constant affectionate gestures. Even though Attwood does not explicitly claim that autistic people form relationships solely for the fulfillment of logic based needs, his contrasting depictions of the needs of men and women set up gendered biases that seemingly correlate to being neurotypical and autistic; the autistic, apathetic male and the empathetic, sensitive neurotypical female. Attwood goes on to explain that often times in situations where the neurotypical wife is in need of empathetic consoling and words of affirmation the autistic husband presents logical solutions to her instead. A study posed by clinical psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen upholds the notion that the tendency to think systematically is present in neurotypical males, “Baron-Cohen (2002) examines these behaviors through an Empathizing-Systemizing (E-S) model of typical sex differences, which proposes that females on average have a stronger drive t
RESPONDING TO THE TONY ATTWOOD’S DISCOURSE 5 empathize...while males tend to have a stronger drive to systemize (to analyze or construct rule-based systems -- whether mechanical, abstract, or another type).” (De Waal & Ferrari, 2012, p. 194)
So assuming that this study is correct, this tendency seems to be inherently a male quality, which was further proven by the study to be amplified in children and adults with autism, “Studies using the EQ [Empathy Quotient] report that individuals with ASC [Autism Spectrum Conditions] score lower on both the adult and child versions than the control groups, where typical females score higher than typical males.” (De Waal & Ferrari, 2012, p. 195) However, where Attwood fails is not in his conveyance of the factual nature of an autistic person’s behavior, but rather his lack of equal-handed representation of inner thoughts and emotions; just like many narratives prior to this, Attwood speaks from a place that is heavily based at the perspective of the neurotypical partner, and scarcely focuses on the inner thoughts, feelings, and internal processing/handling of the autistic individual. While it may be true that systematic processing and logical solving is a behavioral tendency of autistic people, that does not mean that the presentation of solutions to one’s partner in times of emotional distress is not a form of a caring gesture in the eyes of the autistic partner. Even if he is aware of the nuances that are present in every marriage, as we can infer he is because of his breadth of experience, his lack of vocalization about these nuances and reiterations of generalizations reinforces the misconception that autistic people are incapable of intimate feeling and having emotional needs themselves. Autistic self-advocate and professor of animal science Temple Grandin even talks about her emotional connection to animals and her ability to read them because they display their needs
RESPONDING TO THE TONY ATTWOOD’S DISCOURSE 6
through their nuanced behavior, and is able to empathize with them and understand what comforts them, such as pressured touch. Psychologist Louis Cozolino recounts Grandin’s explanation of the sensation of her hugging machine,
“Dr. Grandin states that after a while in the machine, she has thoughts of the love she has received from others and the love she feels for them. Her squeeze machine may create a condition of sensory motor regulation that allows her to gain a window into her own emotional world, closed under her normal bodily conditions.” (Cozolino, 2006, p. 288)
This understanding of physical comfort and her observations of the emotional reactions of farm animals led Grandin to develop the squeeze chute in order to calm animals in captivity.
This is a prime example of the ability to empathize on a deep and reflective level for others, and displays the notion of a different wiring of the brain than the neurotypical that allows for other modes of understanding the thoughts and feelings of human beings, animals, and the like. Attwood speaks about the lack of sexual/physical intimacy in the married couples he sees, and jokes that the autistic husband of the relationship does not see the need to have sex if the couple is not trying to have children. Although Grandin made the decision to be celibate, it is clear that physical touch has positive effects on autistic individuals, and Attwood’s dialogue proves to perpetuate the widespread misconception that disabled individuals, both mentally and physically, do not have sexual wants or needs. Grandin’s reflections on the love she feels for those around her debunks the assumption that autistic people prefer to be in solitude. Fidler asks the following question about this in the beginning the of the podcast: “Would many people with Asperger’s...just rather be left alone?” to which Attwood …show more content…
replies,
“I think it’s more of a question of needing solitude throughout the day.
[They] can cope with socializing for a certain period of time, but do so with intense intellectual energy and effort, and do it successfully...then the wheels fall off. [And they say,] ‘I just don’t want to talk to anyone,’”
While those with a general understanding of autism know Attwood’s description to be true, an important piece of perspective is missing in his answer to this question. Fidler asks if autistic people would rather be left alone, and while Attwood answered his question in a sense, he took it to the context of social gatherings. Naoki Higashida’s The Reason I Jump, a groundbreaking novel that goes through the many questions that non-autistic people have asked for decades, and provides comprehensive answers as provided by Naoki, a nonverbal autistic young adult (at the time) who communicated via a alphabet grid. Higashida answers the very question that Fidler poses, “Do you prefer to be on your own?,” to which he responds, “I can’t believe that anyone born as a human being really wants to be left all on their own,
not really. No, for people with autism, what we’re anxious about is that we’re causing trouble for the rest of you, or even getting on your nerves. This is why we often end up being left on our own. The truth is we’d love to be with other people.” (Higashida & Mitchell, 2007, p. 27)
While this written perspective heavily applies to the experiences of a nonverbal autistic individual, in that the factors that lead to Higashida’s isolation seem to have the root cause of having little agency in settings with potential for socialization, his expression of yearning for companionship/the presence of others is important to note. Cozolino explains, “Although they are often self-described ‘loners,’ individuals with Asperger’s express an interest in making friends but are thwarted by their social awkwardness and insensitivity to interpersonal communications.” (Cozolino, 2006, p. 282) In his reply to Fidler’s question, Tony Attwood does not directly answer whether or not being alone is preferred by the autistic individual, and rather explains that there is a limit to how long one can be around others, which leaves room for the assumption that the preferred state is to be alone and that the presence of others is just tolerable for an allotted duration of time.
throughout the paper. The overarching theme and point of interest of the paper will be the generalizations made about both autistic and neurotypical people, in questioning why they are made, if they are accurate, and if other resources back up the claims made by Tony Attwood. It is important to keep in mind that the conversation had between Attwood and Fidler was generally casual/informal in tone, however for the sake of presenting productive and objective dialogue, much of what was said will be taken at face value.
RESPONDING TO THE TONY ATTWOOD’S DISCOURSE 3
Responding to Tony Attwood’s Discourse:
Critiquing and Exploring Ideas Presented in
“Love and family and Asperger’s: Tony Attwood”
As displayed through the episode “Love and family and Asperger’s: Tony Attwood” of the Australian Broadcast Corporation’s podcast Conversations and his work, Tony Attwood has garnered a comprehensive knowledge of autism spectrum disorder and the inner workings of marriages involving an autistic partner through both professional and personal experience; he received a Ph.D. in clinical psychology, holds marriage counseling sessions for couples in which one or both of the partners are autistic, and came to realize later in like that his stepfather presented symptoms of Asperger’s Syndrome. These experiences seem to have informed his outline of understanding about the needs and tendencies of both autistic and neurotypical individuals in emotionally and socially laborious situations/circumstances. Early on in the episode Tony Attwood verbalizes some parallels in describing the behavioral traits of autistic and neurotypical people in intimate relationships; he emphasizes that these traits are truly parallels, in that their lack of intersection is what causes communicative issues in married couples (the recurring couple model in the conversation being a neurotypical wife and an autistic husband). The first parallel made was one that described particular areas of ‘neediness’ that Attwood ascribed to the description of the neurotypical partner versus the autistic partner: neurotypicals
RESPONDING TO THE TONY ATTWOOD’S DISCOURSE 4 are “emotionally needy” while autistics are “socially needy.” This idea of neediness sets up the overarching theme of Attwood’s discussion of what he finds to be the common narrative of the married couples he sees, and that is the inherent needs of each partner based on their neurological properties. Although Attwood verbalizes the fact that just because the autistic partner does not express their feelings through speech does not mean that these feelings do not exist, much of his language enforces the idea that autistic individuals have little intimate, emotional needs. When presenter Richard Fidler asks whether or not “marriage is attractive to those with Asperger’s,” Attwood plainly states that people with Asperger’s ask themselves, “Who do I need?” and that they look for someone to replace their mothers for the purpose of cooking, cleaning, organizing, etc. On the other hand, he describes women as “gardens that need to be tended to,” through the means of constant affectionate gestures. Even though Attwood does not explicitly claim that autistic people form relationships solely for the fulfillment of logic based needs, his contrasting depictions of the needs of men and women set up gendered biases that seemingly correlate to being neurotypical and autistic; the autistic, apathetic male and the empathetic, sensitive neurotypical female. Attwood goes on to explain that often times in situations where the neurotypical wife is in need of empathetic consoling and words of affirmation the autistic husband presents logical solutions to her instead. A study posed by clinical psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen upholds the notion that the tendency to think systematically is present in neurotypical males, “Baron-Cohen (2002) examines these behaviors through an Empathizing-Systemizing (E-S) model of typical sex differences, which proposes that females on average have a stronger drive t
RESPONDING TO THE TONY ATTWOOD’S DISCOURSE 5 empathize...while males tend to have a stronger drive to systemize (to analyze or construct rule-based systems -- whether mechanical, abstract, or another type).” (De Waal & Ferrari, 2012, p. 194)
So assuming that this study is correct, this tendency seems to be inherently a male quality, which was further proven by the study to be amplified in children and adults with autism, “Studies using the EQ [Empathy Quotient] report that individuals with ASC [Autism Spectrum Conditions] score lower on both the adult and child versions than the control groups, where typical females score higher than typical males.” (De Waal & Ferrari, 2012, p. 195) However, where Attwood fails is not in his conveyance of the factual nature of an autistic person’s behavior, but rather his lack of equal-handed representation of inner thoughts and emotions; just like many narratives prior to this, Attwood speaks from a place that is heavily based at the perspective of the neurotypical partner, and scarcely focuses on the inner thoughts, feelings, and internal processing/handling of the autistic individual. While it may be true that systematic processing and logical solving is a behavioral tendency of autistic people, that does not mean that the presentation of solutions to one’s partner in times of emotional distress is not a form of a caring gesture in the eyes of the autistic partner. Even if he is aware of the nuances that are present in every marriage, as we can infer he is because of his breadth of experience, his lack of vocalization about these nuances and reiterations of generalizations reinforces the misconception that autistic people are incapable of intimate feeling and having emotional needs themselves. Autistic self-advocate and professor of animal science Temple Grandin even talks about her emotional connection to animals and her ability to read them because they display their needs
RESPONDING TO THE TONY ATTWOOD’S DISCOURSE 6
through their nuanced behavior, and is able to empathize with them and understand what comforts them, such as pressured touch. Psychologist Louis Cozolino recounts Grandin’s explanation of the sensation of her hugging machine,
“Dr. Grandin states that after a while in the machine, she has thoughts of the love she has received from others and the love she feels for them. Her squeeze machine may create a condition of sensory motor regulation that allows her to gain a window into her own emotional world, closed under her normal bodily conditions.” (Cozolino, 2006, p. 288)
This understanding of physical comfort and her observations of the emotional reactions of farm animals led Grandin to develop the squeeze chute in order to calm animals in captivity.
This is a prime example of the ability to empathize on a deep and reflective level for others, and displays the notion of a different wiring of the brain than the neurotypical that allows for other modes of understanding the thoughts and feelings of human beings, animals, and the like. Attwood speaks about the lack of sexual/physical intimacy in the married couples he sees, and jokes that the autistic husband of the relationship does not see the need to have sex if the couple is not trying to have children. Although Grandin made the decision to be celibate, it is clear that physical touch has positive effects on autistic individuals, and Attwood’s dialogue proves to perpetuate the widespread misconception that disabled individuals, both mentally and physically, do not have sexual wants or needs. Grandin’s reflections on the love she feels for those around her debunks the assumption that autistic people prefer to be in solitude. Fidler asks the following question about this in the beginning the of the podcast: “Would many people with Asperger’s...just rather be left alone?” to which Attwood …show more content…
replies,
“I think it’s more of a question of needing solitude throughout the day.
[They] can cope with socializing for a certain period of time, but do so with intense intellectual energy and effort, and do it successfully...then the wheels fall off. [And they say,] ‘I just don’t want to talk to anyone,’”
While those with a general understanding of autism know Attwood’s description to be true, an important piece of perspective is missing in his answer to this question. Fidler asks if autistic people would rather be left alone, and while Attwood answered his question in a sense, he took it to the context of social gatherings. Naoki Higashida’s The Reason I Jump, a groundbreaking novel that goes through the many questions that non-autistic people have asked for decades, and provides comprehensive answers as provided by Naoki, a nonverbal autistic young adult (at the time) who communicated via a alphabet grid. Higashida answers the very question that Fidler poses, “Do you prefer to be on your own?,” to which he responds, “I can’t believe that anyone born as a human being really wants to be left all on their own,
not really. No, for people with autism, what we’re anxious about is that we’re causing trouble for the rest of you, or even getting on your nerves. This is why we often end up being left on our own. The truth is we’d love to be with other people.” (Higashida & Mitchell, 2007, p. 27)
While this written perspective heavily applies to the experiences of a nonverbal autistic individual, in that the factors that lead to Higashida’s isolation seem to have the root cause of having little agency in settings with potential for socialization, his expression of yearning for companionship/the presence of others is important to note. Cozolino explains, “Although they are often self-described ‘loners,’ individuals with Asperger’s express an interest in making friends but are thwarted by their social awkwardness and insensitivity to interpersonal communications.” (Cozolino, 2006, p. 282) In his reply to Fidler’s question, Tony Attwood does not directly answer whether or not being alone is preferred by the autistic individual, and rather explains that there is a limit to how long one can be around others, which leaves room for the assumption that the preferred state is to be alone and that the presence of others is just tolerable for an allotted duration of time.